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October 1, 2007
Why we need to trade Reyes….
Dictionary.com lists “knee-jerk” as:knee-jerk (nē’jûrk’) adj. Slang
Is this a knee-jerk response? I don’t know but here’s a few reasons why trading Jose Reyes (which the Mets will NEVER do) is the right thing to do:
 (1 votes, average: 5 out of 5) Loading ...81 Responses to “Why we need to trade Reyes….”Leave a ReplyYou must be logged in to post a comment. |
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I agree TOTALLY. Reyes is a disaster waiting to happen. If we dont get a Girardi to fix him, hes done.
I don’t think we should trade Reyes just yet. A shortstop with Reyes’ skills doesn’t often come through your organization — toss that away at your own risk. But I do think people in the organization need to take a look at what’s going on with him and figure out what the problem is and try to address it. Is he having some sort of problem in his personal life? Is the money going to his head? IS he just a punk?
Also, interesting point I’ve been pondering for a bit. In a recent blog entry on Reyes, a poster named john commented about Reyes’ stolen base success % as follows:
I’ve been wondering for a little while about Reyes’ diminished success rate in stealing bases. Not only was he thrown out a lot, but he was picked off an awful lot in the last few months. I have been wondering if Jose is somehow tipping when he’s going to steal and the scouts have figured this out. Under this theory, his tell would have been discovered and disseminated in late June or early July. Of course, this could also be because he was getting on base a whole lot less so he was trying to steal much more often when he got the chance. Nevertheless, as the Mets look to fill their catcher spots for next year, they may want to go out and sign somebody as a backup who would have been in a position to know some of the intelligence the Mets’ division rivals may have on Reyes.
Yea Reyes sucks. He’s so bad he was the MVP of the first half this year and then had a bad second half. No one, not even a 24 year old shortstop who is very good defensively should have a bad half.
I want to know what makes you think he will have a bad year next year. What makes anyone think one of the most purely talented players in baseball will regress instead of progress. Remember just back in April, May and June when he was carrying us? Remember last year when we all thought David Wright was going downhill then in April it seemed confirmed? Patience is what we need to have with Jose. Trading him would be such a huge mistake it’s idiotic to mention it. Who do you suggest we have play shortstop, Anderson Hernandez? What about a lead off batter next year, Beltran, the aforementioned Hernandez? Right now only for Hanley Ramirez would trade Reyes, that’s it.
We are all upset over the lousy play of the Mets this past month but to blame it on Jose is silly to say the least. How about The bullpen that couldn’t hold a lead, or Delgado who couldn’t hit at all from April through September, or maybe just unlucky injuries. Jose flat out sucked the last four weeks but that doesn’t mean he’s done already, it doesn’t mean we need to trade him for prospects, we need to have him work this off season to hit more line drives and more ground balls and hope he can get back to the early season form for an entire year.
Here’s to hoping for better 2008.
Ummm…I think someone forgot the beepboop? How about this, we just monitor Reyes in winter ball or not let him play as much over the winter. To me (and of course people will disagree-thats fine) Reyes’ decline was either A. Fatigue or B. A slump. (Or both-he was fatigued and then went into a season ending slump.) Wright slumped in April and folks were ready to declare him done then, Reyes had a bad month at the worst possible time.
Apprently
Reyes when hitting well & smiling = most exciting player in baseball.
Reyes when slumping & smiling = punk. ?
Its oversimplified and I don’t buy it. 29 other teams would kill to build a franchise around Wright, Reyes, & Beltran.
*Apparently
Once again guys, would the other 29 teams kill to build around Reyes, Wright and Beltran? Possibly, but only if they were allowed the time to acquire arms to go with those three. Here’s the thing, Omar’s not going to get three years to re-vamp the minors and acquire young talent. Pitching has become the scarcest quantity in the majors. There’s nothing out there in the FA market that’s anything different from what we had this year (old guys and re-treads). The ONLY, repeat, the only way the Mets get the quality young arms they need is to trade one of the big three. The Mets have nothing else of value to trade other than the five or so prospects that make up the top of their minor league system. And that? Never works. It would be foolish to trade Milledge, Pelfrey, Humber and Martinez to Minnesota for Santana. Ignoring his high HR ratio, you’d lose a tremendous amount of depth in trading the first three who could easily make the roster next year.
I also saw right after I posted this article that Eddie Coleman believes the Mets might look into trading Beltran which makes sense, but due to the large amount of money he’s owed, you’re limiting the teams you could ship him to, unlike Reyes. Unless the Wilpon’s would consider eating some of Carlos’ contract, which, HA!
Finally, as for the lead-off spot, you’d have to patchwork it. Maybe Milledge or Gomez if they’re still here. There are plenty of team that lack a sparkplug like Jose at the top of their lineup and they get by. When right is he the most exciting player in baseball? Yes, he is. But it’s worrisome that he’s responded to the first major slump of his career by sulking and swinging like a madman.
But, since he’s going to play for us next year, tell him if he steals over 65 bases next year, he gets shot in the face. He had 99 attempts this year which is so ridiculous for a SS that even Jimmy Rollins scoffed at it. Playa found out he’s not all that.
I am honestly not that terrified of our rotation next year as much as the bull pen.
Pedro Good
Maine Good
Perez Good
El Duque Solid
and i have confidence Pelfrey will be better next year.
Sure no aces but Maine and Perez are a lower no. 2 or high no. 3 starter. Pedro could be a stopper when we need one. El Duque was good most of the year. And Pelfrey will hopefully pitch like we all thought he would last year.
I don’t think trading Reyes for anyone pitcher will improve this team drastically enough to guarantee an improved year. If we trade any of Wright Reyes or Beltran i will be very disappointed and the team will be worse off for it.
I can’t rationally respond to this post without hurling insults.
I like you too much for that, Geoff.
Have a beer and wait a week before we start talking about trading Jose Reyes.
This can’t be serious.
That’s fine Danny, you can insult me all you want. I’ve taken an unpopular stance and I’m prepared to get flamed for it. But I stand by my reasoning that barring Omar just fooling another GM, (not unprecedented) the only way to improve this team for NEXT year is to trade one of the big three. Wright and Beltran are players that i think are more valuable than Reyes. Plus, Jose makes less money than both of them. I don’t need to wait a week to think logically, I’m perfectly capable now. A team loaded with position players and next to no pitching isn’t going to win the World Series. That’s the goal, won the Series. Not the East, or even the NL. WIN THE WORLD SERIES. How do you do that? PITCHING!
Jose makes less money than them so that is more reason to trade him?
It doesn’t compute.
No, just makes him easier to trade him. If you go to move Wright or Beltran (especially Carlos) you’d have to find someone willing to take on their salary. I’d argue more, but Heroes is on. I think I’ve explained myself pretty adequately in my posts and the blog. I like Jose, I think he’s important to this team, but I think that trading him will help the team more in the short and long terms. Reyes is the high powered fuel that flows through the Mets engine. The engine in this case is Beltran and Wright, two guys who are 30-30 players and the heart of our lineup.
Who’s gonna hit leadoff and play Gold Glove-level SS?
It’s not going to sound popular, but I’d sign A-Rod for SS and find a high OBP. guy for the #1. Then you’d have Wright-ARod-Beltran. Not a bad 2-3-4.
OK so you want to trade Reyes and increase the payroll 50% to replace him. Sounds like a plan.
Just for a year. Unless you can find takers for Delgado, Wagner and Pedro, who come off the books at the end of 2008. Besides, it’s not going to cost 50 million for A-Rod, more like 30-35. But hey, we’re the NY Mets, what should money matter to us? With a new ballpark and a regional network, I don’t ever want to her the words, “fiscally responsible” come from Omar’s mouth.
Where were you when Wright struggled the second half of last season and the first month this season. Were you advocating a trade then cause Wright was at his highest value? I mean, it was out there that he wasn’t working as hard cause he was spending the extra time he usually put in working on baseball with a gal pal instead.
I personally think it would of been more productive to wait until the hurt had subsided and then post this, maybe with a little bit of a clearer mind for everyone. I think, although unintentional, this is going to piss more people off then actually bring on productive discussion. I mean we see this #### downing the Mets every which way then bam, front page and its here on metsgeek. An article ripping one of the two most beloved Mets. I mean, It’s not your intent to piss people off one night after their ####ing hearts were riped out right? Cause this is what this essential will do. Like I said, this would of been a great piece after a little while had past.
Now back to what I think about your proposal. Let me get this straight, you want to trade a 24 year old shortstop, 2 time all star, who very well could of been the national league MVP in 2006 cause he had 2 bad months to finish a season. I think this, although well thought out, is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read and I stand by the fact that this was way to soon.
Too soon? I’m turing the hurt I feel into something productive, thinking about next year. And I’m worried about the state of the pitching next year. To the point where I’d consider trading Reyes for a package of young MLB ready players, with some high quality arms included. It has very little to do with his slump. I think there were 7 other reason I listed to trade him.
Your free to write whatever you want Geoff. I think a writer, even a blogger, needs to know his audience. I guess that is just me. You know all the choke columns today were not written for met fans, they were written for the fans that hate us. The Fan? Well, thats a place for a bunch of talking heads to tell people they told us so. They know that by pissing people off, more people are going to end up listening to hear what they say. Look at the link dump almost everyday. People complain endlessly about what these dicks say yet they keep tuning in. Ratings go up, the fan gets rich.
Like I said, I don’t think you meant any harm. I really think this was genuine in nature.
I have to disagree about the articles. I like them, but then again, I’m a Mets fan so I’m masochistic. The point of them is for Mets fans to read them and say, “Yeah, they did collapse and heads need to roll.” Wallace Matthews (who I’ll admit is a tool) wrote an article that’s going to appear in tomorrow’s Newsday that pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.
I have to say, I’ve never quite followed the logic that “SOMETHING drastic has to change for (insert problem here) to be resolved and for the team to be better”
To me, if there’s a problem, fix the problem. If there are a few problems, address those problems. If the team needs an overhaul, fine. But the idea that SOMETHING has to change, and it doesn’t matter what that is, as long as there’s change for the sake of change, rubs me the wrong way.
I know you listed a bunch or reasons to back up your belief that Reyes should be traded, and I don’t really agree with any of them, let alone the whole premise - but this one really gets me, because I’ve heard it so often and it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
I think Geoff has a legitimate point here. Reyes might be unique on the team in that he is extremely marketable despite a relatively disappointing season. He had a good season, and he’s still one of the most valuable shortstops in the National League; however, he did not have the MVP-caliber many predicted. He might still have it in him, but he might not, too.
He’s certainly talented–his first month this season was awesome–but consistency is an important part of baseball, too. Would I trade Reyes? I’d really think about it if I decided Reyes wasn’t going to be the difference over the next couple of seasons.
Reyes is a good player. He was one of the five or six best shortstops in the game this season, and he’s very young and talented. That’s a valuable commodity, both as a player, as well as a trading chip. If it would be possible to grab a couple of talented, young players–which seems to be what Geoff is suggesting here–it might still be worth exploring. It might not, too. If the Dodgers offered a package consisting of some of the pieces Geoff mentions above, I’d at least listen.
I don’t agree with all of Geoff’s points. I’d qualify #1 a little, I don’t fully agree with #2, #6 is a little too knee-jerky for me, and sometimes the effect of #3 is drastically overrated. But there is a point in there.
What I certainly would not do is short change Reyes’s value, either.
Regarding my earlier point Reyes being fatigued/tired, I know this will not be received well (because of who is quoted), but this from an article in May:
“I don’t think he’s going to steal 100, because of the position he plays and the way he plays,” said Rollins, whose own career high is 46 stolen bases, in 2001. “That’s a lot you’re asking your body to handle.”
Rollins attempted 54 steals in 2001, at age 22. Only once, in the five seasons since, has he even been within 10 attempts of that — and not by accident. The pounding took too much of a toll on his legs, he said, and he needs those legs to play shortstop the way it’s supposed to be played.
Full Article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2858489
I know Keith chirps up in the booth all the time about how Reyes & Wright are young, and should have lots of energy, but I think from here on out, Reyes should be stealing around 60 bases a yr. rather than close to 80.
If you look at his stats as a whole, they’re similar to last year except that his steals & walks went up, and his power #’s & slugging were down. I’m no expert, but there could be a correlation there. I wouldn’t want to limit Reyes in any way on the basepaths (see the game where he made Benitez balk twice before coughing up the game winning HR to Delgado), but I think he needs to cut down on his attempts.
I’m sorry, but I’m having reading this. I really am. This is EXACTLY the same thing people did to Wright when he went through his struggles last season; they said he was too caught up in his stardom, that he was distracted, that he wasn’t as good as we initially thought. What did David do? He had his best season so far and one of the most productive all-around seasons in Mets’ history. I don’t see anyone talking about how marketable he is or if Wright could land us Santana.
To trade Reyes would be worse than trading Kazmir. “Our team messed up, so we’ll trade away a young superstar because he was unproductive for two months.” What kind of logic is that exactly? Let me also go on the record as saying that if Reyes didn’t have the first two months that he did, we would have been knocked out of the race a lot earlier. It’s partially in thanks to his performance that this team didn’t fade away by early September. Every game counts—even the ones in April.
So, in short, thanks but no thanks. I’m not going to give up on Reyes the same way people were giving up on Wright just a year ago.
Er… damn. I meant to start by saying “but I’m having trouble reading this.”
i think any gm should always be willing to trade any one of his players at any time, if the right trade came along. but the problem with this post, i think, is that it severely undervalues reyes. kemp and kershaw are not worth reyes. kemp is not significantly better than alou/chavez or milledge and kershaw’s contributions will be minimal next year. after next year, kemp would be blocking gomez, who won’t be much worse than he is and we’d be banking on a 21 year old pitcher to give us a ton of production. i guess we’d have saved like $8 million or something (reyes’s salary) for the year, but i doubt we could make up the production with that amount of money. not a good trade, for next year or the future.
if we could get loney, kemp and billingsley, i’d consider it, but still probably wouldn’t do it. loney’s an immediate improvement over delgado and we have no 1b for the future. kemp makes gomez expendable, so we might be able to get something nice in trade, and billingsly helps immediately, with high upside and low risk. but altogether do they improve our team for next year? maybe, maybe not - could go either way. this year, a full year of loney would only have been worth about a win over delgado (if you believe warp1) and a full year of kemp only about a win over alou and chavez. reyes was worth 9 wins. that’s at least five over anderson hernandez. does billingsley make up the difference? are we sure that as loney and kemp and billingsley improve, reyes won’t improve as well? are we sure kemp won’t start to get in trouble over his lack of patience at the plate?
i just don’t think there’s any way you can dare to trade someone as valuable as reyes. even if we think he’s “only” a perpetual 285/345/430 hitter, decent defender and great basestealer, that’s still worth over 30 wins over the next four years. for cheap. and that’s a really conservative estimate for reyes. obviously, he could be 300/370/480 just as easily.
if the dodgers offered kemp, loney, billingsley and kershaw, i’d strongly consider it. if they threw in chin-lung hu, i’d probably do it. but even then, i’d have to think about it long and hard. it still makes us worse for next year, but there’s an okay chance we’d be better in the long run. whatever. i’ve written and erased this post three times now. i’m running out of steam. point is, we shouldn’t trade reyes unless some team’s willing to give us everything they’ve got.
I say we trade Reyes to Colorado for Kaz Matsui. Now that guy can play, hes in the playoffs and Im sure he’d be a perfect fit in New York. And oh yeah…
BeepeveryoneislosingtheirmindsBoop
Ok, this is way over the top. Yes, the Mets have issues. They need pitching. They need a catcher, a second baseman, and at least one outfielder. But trade Reyes? No way. This is a kid who had two bad months. His September performance was a big part of the collapse. But the Mets were an 88-win team! They didn’t make the playoffs, but they aren’t exactly the Pirates either. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The Mets have three legitimately excellent players: David Wright, Carlos Beltran and Jose Reyes. You build AROUND those guys. You don’t trade them away. Geez, panic much?
Geoff, you got my support. The difference between Wright and Reyes is Wright is not a showboat. Ststs, this, that etc we can talk till we are blue in the face. If i can get Santana for Reyes I do it. If i can get 2 great arms for reyes I do it. Its not the slump that is the worry for reyes its his attitude.
Oh sweet merciful Jesus.
This is the same reaction to the poor season last year of another NY infielder.
He did pretty well in 2007 though.
When did WFAN take over the Geek?
Trade Reyes == sell low!!! PANIC!!!
DDOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMEDEDEDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!©
Oh BTW, the Dodgers are having the same issues with Matt Kemp and James Loney that we’re suppodly having with Reyes and ITAM. Loney ripped Kent my name in the La Times matter fact.
Let me get this straight, we want to trade Reyes for Billingsley, who has all of 237 career innings in the majors and Loney?
Sorry, no thanks.
You open up a gaping hole at SS, as well as leadoff hitter.
All this cause a guy slumped.
Man. Tough crowd.
Man, I know this season ended painfully and Reyes went into the tank at the end of the season, but are you kidding me? No not a chance in heck I would trade Reyes, he and Wright are the reason why I can still rout for this team.
I know you say this would never happen, but you forgot to remember why.
I couldn’t agree more with Danny’s #8 post. Let’s all have a drink or two or ten and think this over. I know Reyes fell off the face of the Earth starting in August and then picked up speed in his downward spiral, but players like Reyes are so special. You don’t trade guys like him. Let’s calm down, besides pitching is at such a premium right now. Who has pitching to spare?
reyes for santana is a terrible idea. if we called the twins with that offer, they’d think we were pulling their leg.
also, i want to go back and agree with sarah’s post (21) that we do not have to do anything drastic to save this team. i say this not only in response to the call for reyes’s trade, but also to those who want to keep reyes, but still think we need so many pieces. we don’t. we don’t need an outfielder, because we’ve got beltran, milledge, alou, ben johnson, and endy chavez. we don’t need a second baseman; we’ve got gotay and anderson hernandez. we don’t need pitching; we’ve got pedro, maine, perez, pelfrey, el duque, humber and glavine if he wants to come back. we need a catcher, but we’ll almost certainly be able to re-sign castro for cheap.
i know a lot of people don’t like gotay or castro as a regular for instance, but if you look at our roster objectively, we’ll almost certainly be a better team next year without making any moves at all (except re-signing castro). milledge instead of green and castro instead of lo duca are improvements. delgado’s walk rate should bounce back at least. gotay/anderson for a full year are at least as good as what we got out of valentin/gotay/castillo this year. with pedro back and an improvement by pelfrey, our starters will be better, and with sanchez back and a full year from joe smith, our bullpen will be better too. i’d say that right now, on paper, without doing anything, we’re about 4 wins better next year than we were this year. we should certainly try to improve, but just like last offseason, i think we need to be patient and not do anything desperate.
omg. i’m already hearing about us offering reyes, pelfrey and gomez for santana and bartlett and trying to sign ivan rodriguez. my worst fears are about to come true.
e poc, that is just silly conjecture from Busted Olney. Think nothing of it.
It ain’t gonna happen.
danny, i don’t trust olney either. but the rodriguez thing seems valid and the olney thing scared me into thinking that we might do something stupid like milledge, maine and fmart for santana. i guess it only now dawned on me that i do not trust omar; he’s already proven that he’s perfectly willing to gut the system for aging vets and small windows of opportunity. all right. all right. i’m going to take some deep breaths.
Omar hasn’t gutted the system for aging veterans. If he did we would have gotten relief help.
Geoff, this is from a business friend of mine who is a MAJOR MLB insider. I am with you buddy on Reyes being gone ;)
________________________________________________________
Now, since they have lost so much ground to the Yankees in missing the playoffs…..and selling the Corportate Boxes at Citi Field vs. the new Yankee Stadium….what do you think about trading Reyas and signing A-Rod?
Yeah NJ, Santana and A-Rod combined should only cost the Mets about $60M/year for the next 7-8 years. That makes for great payroll flexibility.
You should be the GM, really.
i guess “gutted” is a strong word, but i was referring to trading for lo duca and delgado two offseasons ago.
I thought Omar paid a reasonable price for Delgado, even in hindsight.
I agree that he overpaid for LoDuca, but I irrationally love Gaby Hernandez, even today.
i still love petit, and i’m not sure how irrational that is. he’s still only 22. psomas doesn’t look like he’ll amount to anything, but delgado’s no great improvement over jacobs, so i guess it depends whether you think delgado over jacobs last year was worth giving up petit. it could go either way. even if we’d played to our pyth last year with jacobs, we’d still have won the division handily; at the same time, last year went so well that it’s hard to say we shouldn’t have done it. but we’re now on the hook for delgado’s contract as he declines. i don’t think it was a terrible move, but i wouldn’t have done it, and it came from the same sort of position we’re in right now and it’s the same sort of thing as milledge and maine for santana and i’m worried that’s the way omar’s thinking now.
I think the wright ‘06 = reyes ‘07 comparison is flawed.
Despite his 2nd half decline Wright ‘06 was equal to Wright ‘05.
2005: 306/388/523/911, 27/102 HR/rbi
2006: 311/381/531/912 26/116 HR/rbi
On the other hand, aside from stolen bases Jose regressed from 2006 to 2007.
2006: 300/354/487/841, 19/81 HR/rbi, 64 steals
2007: 280/354/421/775, 12/57 HR/rbi, 78 steals
And his post-all-star break 251/316/402/718 (323 ABs) was worse than Mark Loretta’s season. 300+ consecutive ABs of a 315 obp is absolutely awful.
Another big difference between Wright & Reyes slumps was Wright didn’t pout - he took responsibility and kept plugging. Reyes looked like he quit on balls he failed to run out & stupid on attempted steals of 3rd with 2 outs.
Doesn’t mean you should definitely trade him but you should explore all options. If you fail to critically examine every player you risk another 5 year run out of the playoffs.
It could be that Jose may have gone as far as he can on talent alone. Thus far the game has come easy to this natural talent. He’s never had to rely on guts, guile or baseball smarts - he may need them to actually put together a full elite season. Maturity could make or break him - I sure hope it comes.
Finally, I could not disagree more with those who think our current rotation can keep us an upper division club. Without an upgrade we’re more likely to finish 3rd than 1st next season. The reason Reyes is on the table is that our farm system is basically barren compared to many other clubs.
There are no free agent arms worth getting & guys like Bannister, Bell, Ring, Lindstrom & Owens who could have been packaged for a top flight pitcher were given up for a bunch of guys who have not and may never contribute at all. It was a very poor job of evaluating young pitching done by the front office this past off-season. Hopefully this one will be more reminiscent of the days when we got Ollie & the Maine for excess parts.
Trade the most exciting player in MLB today @ 24 years of age? Please don’t take this wrong Geoff, but when I hear/read things like this from fans it makes me realize that maybe our current GM isn’t really that bad after all. Even if he has made a few clunkers for trades this past offseason (Bannister, Bell, Lindstrom).
I fully respect the rights to free speech and press but for the life of me I can’t believe hard core Met fans are actually entertaining this RIDICULOUS notion. We cry, moan, & bellyache about losing Seaver (way before your time), Strawberry, and probably more in tune with you Scott Kazmir and hard core Met fans are seriously saying “trade” Jose Reyes?? What the ???
To trade Jose Reyes or David Wright isn’t even an option. They’re the franchise and the reason the Mets have started winning again. It really amazes me that live or die Met fans don’t already realize this.
(ludicrous)
in the end its all about money. The Mets just lost millions and millions in playoff money etc..
The Mets have to make big moves. Did Reyes help us as much as the pitching killed us??
Would you turn down 160 RBIS and over 50 hrs?? A-rod would rake in the people. I already know 4 people who have let their tiks go because or Willie, All the bad comments and the fact that Reyes is a punk. I am not kidding
You may not be kidding, but you are showing true colors, and not for the first time. You’re a very difficult man, NJ, when the Mets aren’t winning. God knows how you have survived the overwhelming majority of seasons.
Nj, as I said before, EVERY game counts—both in April and in September. We would have been done a lot sooner if not for Reyes’ torrid start.
If Reyes were 34, I’d be inclined to listen. However, he’s 24, has loads of talent, and is undeniably exciting when he’s on his game. He’ll mature just as Wright did.
I guess that may have been unfair. I guess it’s not about true colors. I just wish, and have wished at many times this season, that you would try to spread something of substance besides the sort of spirit that “Reyes is a punk.” No, he’s not. In fact, he’s probably the greatest thing to ever happen to the Mets, and only a fan blinded by disappointment could say otherwise. Name any man to ever play the game and I can find you an instance where he did not do his best, let alone a significant stretch of slump. Try to be reasonable. Reyes is the heart and soul of this team. Did he find a bad time to struggle? Yes, certainly. But, I mean, why would you draw more out of it than that? If you can’t realize the silliness of such a complete turn on Reyes, to the point where you call him a “punk” then, truly, I don’t know what to say…
Believe in 2008. We’re going to be ####ing good, and it’s going to be a lot of fun.
Go Rockies.
I am sick and tired of this “reyes is a punk” bull####. It smacks of other sites and WFAN callers. No one said #### about him until Monday. He slumped, it is quite simple. All players slump.
We are all pissed about the collapse, but Reyes was far from the main reason for it.
The bullpen sucked.
Starters had crappy outings.
Many guys didn’t hit in key spots.
Wright slumped in April.
Delgado slumped most of the year.
Hanging this on Reyes is ridiculous.
He is 24 years old.
NJ, you posted the other day and this morning that you were done with the Mets. So leave. Willie is back, so that cements it.
You know 4 people who gave up their seats? Will there be a slight drop in season ticket sales, probably. But when the team jumps out of the gate, a lot of those peoople are going to regret giving their seats up.
cp, i think you’re right in pointing out the differences between wright’s slump and reyes’s slump, but i think you’re assessment isn’t entirely accurate. for one thing, it’s pretty clear that reyes’s on-base skills did not regress this year, which is very important, since that was the one part of his game that was really lacking. also, his defense improved drastically, which was the other questionable part of his game. warp1 thinks he was worth more this year than last, largely because of his defense. he also basically maintained his walk and k rates throughout the season, with inconsistent power. his late season slump was due largely to not hitting the ball well when he hit it. a young guy with a lot of talent who maintains his walk and contact rates is almost by definition in a slump. if he’d gone back to the reyes who walked only once every other week i’d be concerned. as it is, he just needs to straighten himself out, which won’t be a huge problem. the only difference between first half reyes and second half reyes was babip, and that’s because he was popping up too much. he just needs to rest and spend a couple weeks regaining a line drive swing and he’ll be fine.
i also think you’re wrong about our pitching staff. injury risk is a concern to me, but the talent is definitely there. pedro, maine and perez are all well above league average starters. 60% of our rotation is very good. and el duque and pelfrey are a decent 4 and 5. humber should be okay if he’s got to fill in for injuries. i’d love to upgrade, but there’s no real urgency. i think we’re fine. i also think our system is fine; not strong, but okay. we control maine for 4 more years (i think), plus pelfrey, humber, mulvey, neise, stoner and guerra. most of those guys won’t pan out, but i’d hardly say our system is barren. i don’t know what kind of powerhouse teams u’re envisioning the phillies or braves putting on the field next season, but from where i’m sitting, we look okay. the braves can’t add any payroll and they’re the ones with the really depleted system, while the phillies rotation is about 8 degress worse than ours, not to mention their terrible bullpen.
Wow, I see I got people all riled up.
Super T, I wanna address the Kazmir issue. To me, the problem with Kazmir (since the other examples are before my time) was not that he was traded, but that the Mets got very little in return for him. Most here would agree that trading Kazmir for Tim Hudson would have been reasonable (and possible) and would be helping us right now.
Once again, I’m not saying dump Reyes because of his “attitude” or “because he’s a punk,” I’m merely stating that he had a precipitous decline in the second half of this season and it’s something I would look into. Everyone says he makes up a “core” along with Wright and Beltran. Well, if you trade him for, let’s say, Kemp, Kershaw and Loney, you manage to expand that core to include the three guys you got back from the Dodgers. It’s worth looking into.
Also, I’m aware that Kemp and Loney have, “attitude problems” according to Jeff Kent and Luis Gonzalez, but I’m choosing not to listen to the opinions of an idiot and a steroid user. The Dodgers would be foolish to trade those two guys, Kemp in particular. I see nothing there that’s any more obnoxious than what Milledge is doing, and I don’t think you trade him just because of his “attitude problems”. At least Milledge isn’t throwing his manager and pitching coach under the bus and burning bridges in another city, Billy Wanger. Know your place, you inbred hick.
nj, i think you’re off your rocker a little bit, but the idea of trading reyes and signing a-rod is intriguing. let’s say we can trade reyes, gomez, delgado (his whole contract), and el duque to the dodgers for kemp, loney, billingsley, kershaw, laroche and hu. we sign a-rod for 5/100 (with money off the books from glavine, delgado and reyes). then we spin laroche, along with milledge and maine, for santana, and then sign him long term. we play a-rod at short for 08, then hu takes over and a-rod moves over to first, loney to left (when alou leaves). wouldn’t that be awesome?
unfortunately, geoff, as i’ve pointed out before, kemp, loney and kershaw for reyes actually doesn’t improve this team at all.
No, epoc, but get those guys along with A-Rod and then it might improve this team.
for next year maybe. what happens when a-rod is 35 and can’t play shortstop anymore or hit 40 homers a year and he’s still taking up a fifth our payroll? and besides, if a-rod is the difference, why not just sign a-rod and make him play first base? no need to trade reyes.
I honestly don’t know. Do you think Omar Minaya has a plan for every position for the next five years? I also think there’s no shot A-Rod signs to play first. You’d probably have to convince him to $witch to $hort$top form 3B.
i don’t think he has a plan for every position for the next five years, but i think that if he’s going to give a player (at least) $100 million, he should probably be thinking about what that money’s going to be getting him at the end of that contract. which, in a-rod’s case, is not a shortstop and not a $30 million player. at the end of reyes’s contract, on the other hand, he’ll still be a shortstop and an $11 million player.
re epoc post 57-
I could barely get my head around that! Why in hell would the dodgers do that deal? I know Reyes is desireable, but why would they take All of delgados´contract? Besides, Boras will never let ARod sign for less than he´s making anually now for only 5 years. Boras has said that he thinks ARod will be the first $30 million player–I think you´re looking at 7 yrs, $150-175 million for ARod, at least in the eyes of ARod and Boras.
Keep Reyes. Period.
Someone above said they wouldn´t trade Milledge, FMart, and Maine for Santana. I´d do that in a second! Maine is good, but replaceable (by Humber? Pelfrey? Mulvey?). Milledge will probably be good, but certainly hasn´t proven anything yet. FMart is an oft-injured prospect with potential but a very short track record. Santana is a once in a generation ace– get him. Sign him, whatever the cost. That´s where the money should go– good pitching.
Santana, Pedro, Ollie, Humber, Pelfrey/Duque
OF08- Alou/Chavez/Gomez, Beltran, FA
OF09- FA, Beltran, Gomez
Prospect evaluations should always be taken with a grain of salt–
Previous mets ¨great¨ prospects–
Gregg Jeffries
Bill Pulsipher
Jason Izringhausen
Paul Wilson
Rey Ordoñez
¨Good¨ prospects with tools-
Stanley Jefferson
Laschelle Tarver
Billy Beane (yes, that one)
Out of all of those, only Izzy has had an above average career, and even that wasn´t stellar.
I am off My Rocker most of the time e poc ;)
Um, what happened to the Geek? We’ve lost posts here and yesterdays link dump.
Ed- I think it was down overnight–I tried to log in earlier and got nothing.
trade the young man for 2 or 3 really good player. he has no respect for the game. i would have yanked him everytime he acted out. boy the game has changed.
#56
Tim Hudson’s ERA+ with the Braves: 125(in 192 IP), 91(in 218.3 IP), 131 (in 224.3 IP)
Scott Kazmir’s ERA+ in the same period: 114(in 186 IP), 144(in 144.7 IP), 132(in 206.7 IP)
Kazmir was worse, but not by all that much, than Hudson in 2005, MUCH better but in fewer innings in 2006, and about the same in 2007. Keep in mind that Hudson’s contract expired at the end of 2005, and the Braves had to sign him to an extension for $47M / 4.
Kazmir + $12 M a year > Hudson.
As a GM i go after Santana. I also try to get Dontrelle and fix him. With Ollie, Maine, Dontrelle, Santana and Pedro the Mets can be more solid.
Santana, Pedro, Dontrelle, Ollie and Maine in that order.
The big problem is the pen. They all suck. I keep Sosa and Pedro2 thats it.
Geoff I am still with you.
If we landed A-rod to play SS for 2 or 3 years, trade Reyes and get Sanatan and The D train things could be alot better. Delgado has to go as well.
A-rod is not a SS anymore. Look at how much bigger he is now from his days in Texas and he is now at the age where his range is only going to get worse.
Trade Reyes because of a slump. I am glad that people around here don’t run the Mets. Seriously the kid is 2 time AS who plays GG defense and can steal 70 bases. I think Reyes got tired and it was something he had never dealt with b4. His body was beat and he got frustrated plain and simple. Nevermind how hot he was to start the year in caring the Mets or the fact for most of the season the kid had reached base more times in 07 than 06 had stolen more bases in 07 but scored less runs. So if the 2 spot hadn’t been a black hole, Beltran hit better situationally and Delgado not been a black hole for a good part of the year maybe the Mets wouldn’t have been left in such a ####ty position. I know I can’t remember how many times early in the year I watched Reyes lead of with a single steal second get to third on an out and then be stranded there.
I’m just glad Geoff didn’t pull an Owen Wilson.
Dont trade Reyes because of a slump, trade him because we can get alot for him.
I am STILL with you Geoff
We take Arod to get to post season and then take him off when we get there ;)
Arod is sucking in another post season I see. I dotn want this guy anywhere near the mets.
Trading Reyes isn’t out of the question. If say, the Marlins offered Hanley Ramirez, then yeah, it’s in the Mets best interests to consider a deal. But this “we need to trade Reyes” is just silly.
Let me address the post point by point:
His slump has been discussed to death, it happens. Even *if* he’s plateued as a player at 24, that plateau is not a detriment to the team. There are 25-26 teams that would love to have Jose’s production at SS.
I’m just glad I don’t get WFAN out here in LA. Equating Jose with Darryl and Doc? Ugh.
Arms in the system would be nice. You know what is also nice? Having one of the best SS in all of baseball at a reasonable price. The 6 pitchers you name (ignoring El Duque…why I’m not sure) are not a terrible rotation. Pedro, Maine and Ollie are all well above league average pitchers (pedro with the potential to be among the best). The other three are young pitchers who have potential to be better next year. It’s not a lineup of Cy Young candidates, but it’s not bad.
I’ll grant those players are all promising players, and cost controlled, and if they could be packaged then *perhaps* it’d be worth looking at. Worth *considering*. This isn’t a reason why Jose *NEEDS* to be traded as you seem to suggest.
Jose’s late season slump is well documented, so the only way his value “will never be higher” is if you believe that Reyes will decline and only get worse from here on out for the rest of his career. Not even just plateau, but decline. From a 24 year old who has continually shown progress for his first 3 years, up till the last 2 months. So you think the last 2 months is more indicative of his ability to improve than the previous 3 years? I disagree.
As pointed out by others, this simply isn’t true. This is the kind of thinking that got Kazmir sent to Tampa.
I wouldn’t trade Reyes for Hanley Ramirez because Hanley can’t field the position is probably a 3rd baseman in the making.
Doc, even though Hanley is brutal with the glove, his bat is fantastic. So even though he’s likely to have to move to a different position (DW and Reyes have both improved defensively, there’s reason to believe Hanley can get better defesively too), it’d be a trade that’d have to be seriously considered.
Wow. For his money, Jose would be a bargain even under a worst-case scenario (or almost worst). 5 Million a year for a player who is 16th in win shares in a year that for him is considered a disaster. (I don’t think he is the 16th best-paid player in the league).
People forget that this man put up MVP numbers last year and was the MVP until the All Star Break this year. He carried the team for 3 months. But “something has to change”. Let’s trade the m**********r! I don’t care for whom! Just DO IT!
I could see trading Reyes if we got Santana for him and he was signed before the trade (certainly not for a rental). Or if we could get a player like Cleveland’s catcher in Victor Martinez. But put quite simply trading Reyes to “make a change” or “because his value will never be higher” would be about the silliest thing I ever heard.